Tuesday 03/21/2023 by phishnet

INTERVIEW OF PHRE

[The following post is an interview with Kate Aly-Brady, Daniel Budiansky, Adam Lioz, and Rupa Mitra by Stephanie Jenkins about their article, “White Phragility.” The interview is part of an AMA series celebrating the publication of the “Phish and Philosophy” special issue of the Public Philosophy Journal (edited by Stephanie Jenkins and Charlie Dirksen). Kate, Daniel, Adam, and Rupa will also be answering your questions in the Comments throughout the week. Please note that the opinions expressed in blog posts on this site are not necessarily endorsed or shared by any of the volunteers who run Phish.net or The Mockingbird Foundation. This site and this blog rely entirely on the work of volunteers. -Ed.]

Tell us about yourselves? Who are you? When were your first shows? Why do you come back?

RM: My name is Rupa Mitra, and I was born in the US to parents of Bengali ethnic heritage. I grew up in the Northeast of the US but lived a third of my adult life abroad (mainly France and Tanzania). I’m a labor/human resources lawyer. My first show was in 2011. I had to take a hiatus when I gave birth as a solo parent in 2019 but hope to be bringing my little one to shows before long! Nothing can compare to the exuberance of a Phish show.

KAB: My name is Kate Aly-Brady, and I am a cisgender white female who grew up on the East Coast. I moved to the Pacific Northwest after college, and have been a special education teacher ever since. My first shows were in 1998, and I keep coming back because the music, the people, the energy are like home. I’m a part of Phans for Racial Equity (PHRE) because I want everyone to have the chance to feel at home there, too.

ARL: My name’s Adam Lioz and I’m a secular Jewish kid from Long Island who grew up seeing the Dead at Nassau Coliseum, MSG, and Giant’s stadium in the 90s. For my day job I work to promote inclusive, multiracial democracy (fighting to expand voting rights) as a lawyer and advocate. I saw a few shows in 1.0 and 2.0 (including Coventry), but I really got hooked in 2009 when I went to the Gorge and Festival 8. I keep coming back for the music, the community, and that decent chance each night to experience some pure joy and collective ecstatic release. I sometimes think these four guys run the most efficient joy factory I’ve ever seen.

DB: My name is Daniel Budiansky (.net: @climber17). I am a cisgender white male who grew up in the suburbs of Northern Virginia during the 80s. While my first show was 4/20/94, it wasn’t until my second show, when they played University Hall (at UVa, where I was a student) in late fall ‘94 that I “got IT”, during the first set "Maze"…it’s been a long, strange trip ever since. A Phish show will forever be my “home away from home.”

Why did you decide to write this essay? What do you want your readers to take away from it?

ARL: The essay is based on the online reactions to the "Phish Scene So White: Let’s Talk" blog post I wrote in 2017. To be honest I was pretty surprised and a bit taken back by the response – first that it went so viral, with thousands of comments, and then by the vitriol it inspired, both through those comments and through some pretty harsh direct messages to me. Of course, people looked me up and called me a tarper and that was fine, but I really didn’t anticipate how upset people got. But when I started to look at the response through the lens of DiAngelo’s white fragility framework it started to make a lot more sense. A big reason people were so angry and defensive is that we see ourselves as an inclusive, welcoming scene and my essay was a threat to that self-image. Once we started looking at the comments with DiAngelo’s lens it was pretty easy to start seeing a lot of the comments as examples of one or more of the elements of defensiveness and fragility.

Our goal was to encourage people to examine our scene a bit more closely and critically and think about whether we’re quite as inclusive as we think, and whether the kind of defensiveness that is the hallmark of white fragility might be a particular challenge for us moving forward. We also think we hit a neat extension of D’Angelo’s theory by distinguishing between “pillars” of white fragility (which are the false beliefs about race that lead to the fragility) and “manifestations” (which are the various ways that the resulting defensiveness plays out).

© 2018 Kathleen Hinkel (Group PHRE photo--Adam Lioz and Rupa Mitra to the right).jpg
© 2018 Kathleen Hinkel (Group PHRE photo--Adam Lioz and Rupa Mitra to the right).jpg

Why do so many people in our scene seem so resistant to even discuss race as an issue, as it relates to the phan experience?

RM: I think everyone has their own take on this. Mine is that, because the scene is overwhelmingly white, it has a particular, built-in resistance to questioning the majority point of view and lived experience with regard to race and white privilege. White phans think of their scene as “apolitical”, even though that sense is just a product of white (and socio-economic) privilege to begin with. In addition, a big part of the phan experience is based on a sense of connection and familiarity, and of belonging to a group of people who are “different” from mainstream folk (who are called “normies” in a gently derogatory way). Phans think they are unconventional and have better values than “normies.” Ideas that challenge the status quo of that experience and that sense of belonging are therefore hard to entertain. Also, the phandom seems to generally be politically left-leaning. People in the scene may think they are already “enlightened” when it comes to issues of race and that they don’t need to question their ideas or learn more.

What do you think it will take to push against the myth of Phish shows as apolitical spaces?

RM: It has been helpful to create a forum for the voices of those who recognize Phish shows as the political spaces they are, rather than the little “oases” and “neutral” bubbles that may believe and wish them to be. Tabling and showing our presence as an organization at shows is an important action in this regard, too. And having the band recognize and even showcase PHRE, in particular through their Dinner and a Movie series, is priceless. That makes it harder for people who want to believe that the shows are apolitical spaces to persist in such a belief, and hopefully makes them question the belief at least a little. I also hope Adam will write a follow-up article to his Headcount piece- it would be very interesting to read and weigh the reaction to that, in light of how far we have come!

Would you recommend some tactics when encountering white fragility, anywhere, not just at shows? I know that's a big question, but perhaps a simple first step, where someone can start.

KAB: Sometimes, a statement as simple as, “I hope you’re not saying that to me because you think I agree with you” or “we don’t believe things like that here” is enough to interrupt things. Other times, it might be more important to focus on who might be harmed by the showcase of fragility–maybe there are ways you can use your presence to increase safety, show solidarity, and/or provide distraction. PHRE has developed a bystander training, which we have delivered in conjunction with tabling before the shows

Do the strategies and skills for responding to racism and white fragility in live music environments differ from those in other scenarios? In other words, do concerts present unique challenges? If so, how? And how do we overcome them?

DB: These dynamics are systemic, show up everywhere, and any distinctions of how they show up in different scenarios, are at some level, academic. The personal work and skills for responding to racism showing up are also fundamentally the same. We can be mindful of our surroundings, prioritize the safety of those being harmed, and check our own tendencies towards righteousness (because folks are unlikely to even hear us over the band). In addition to the dynamics described by Rupa, a concert creates a particular intersection between leisure space, including the potential for “accepted” law breaking, and policing.While the band has worked with the communities where concerts are scheduled to ensure a “light touch”, this experience is not the same for all fans. Having a table at shows has created a unique opportunity to create visibility for PHRE’s message, and allows for an intentional “safe” space for conversations and connections.

© 2019 Adam Lioz (photo of Daniel Budiansky and Kate Aly-Brady at the OSU Phish Studies Conf).jpg
© 2019 Adam Lioz (photo of Daniel Budiansky and Kate Aly-Brady at the OSU Phish Studies Conf).jpg

Let’s say I’m a white person who made one of the comments you cited (or a phan who took a similar action) and, after reading your article, I understand I had a white fragility reaction. What is my next step? Apologize? Delete the comment? Do better next time? Educate myself? Something else?

KAB: Recognizing your own moments of white fragility is a huge step, and a place where immense learning can happen. If an apology is warranted, it’s important to keep it genuine and simple. Overdoing it centers the person who caused harm, rather than restoring things for the person or people harmed. Deleting comments often erases the labor others put into bringing awareness to the reaction, and negates any future impact it could have on others who have similar thought patterns. Educating oneself, in an effort to do better next time, is always time well spent, whether it’s spurred by a fragile reaction or not. The more we know, the more we can do better.

A sincere thanks for the article and for PHRE. I wish everyone would read it. Despite what many phans think, the problems of the world don't stop at the entrance of a show. Question: Ever think about turning this into a book? It could be authored by the four writers here or an edited collection addressing various aspects of race and the jam band scene (or related topics). It could help circulate these ideas/practices in more spaces.

DB: The origin of this article was our paper submitted for participation for the first Phish Studies Conference, hosted by Dr. Stephanie Jenkins, and was part of an entire panel focused on race and social justice issues. Some of these papers were also included on the special edition of PPJ that was dedicated to scholarship on Phish and Philosophy. And while we four authors are not currently planning additional work on the topic, there were quite a few full time academics on the panel, and we are hopeful that these issues will continue to be explored.

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Comments

, comment by marcoesquandoles420
marcoesquandoles420 I love that the scene is becoming more diverse, it's a testament to the scene and the wonderful music that brings us together. It should remain apolitical however. Articles such as this only pry us apart however. I'm non-apologic for being white in the scene or having apolitical feelings about it. I just want to enjoy the bliss of the music and scene with EVERYONE. This is not my 'phragility', it's my exhaustion of having to see this again in something as simply as my love for a band and their phans.
, comment by BathtubJohn84
BathtubJohn84 This entire concept of “white fragility” is in of itself racist and divisive.
, comment by Hari_Hood
Hari_Hood @BathtubJohn84 said:
This entire concept of “white fragility” is in of itself racist and divisive.
Why do you think that?
, comment by JFox913
JFox913 You new age wokesters with your ill-conceived ideologies are what ruins the scene, not just the music scene. It was only a matter of time until you accused the music and the listeners of being racist... For sake of you having something to write about and attempting to virtual signal and build a name for yourself in the woke world, let's pretend all the white attendees have been standing at the entrance gates making sure people of color don't come in or feel welcomed if they do... Music has always been about, THE MUSIC! It brings all of us together, at least until you moron's came about and seek to divide us over the color of our skin, rather than let us naturally commune together in our appreciation of the same sounds. So here you are, reviewing some dipshit professor's idea of racism and pretending that the absence of certain colors at a show must denote undertones of racism... Did it ever occur to you that no-one has ever blocked anyone from enjoying the music of phish? Did it ever occur to you that some people enjoy a certain type of music more than another. Music comes from culture, culture connects us to the music. When reggae came on the scene, do you think the industry or Bob Marley, or Toots, sat around wondering how they can appeal to more white people so their shows are more equitable?...Or NWA, do you think they were concerned not enough white people were showing up to their concerts... But because Phish's fan base is primarily white, it must be an issue...(a racist thought in and of itself). If you heard the sounds, and you liked the sounds, and it transported you somewhere full of joy, why can't you just enjoy it. Why is there all of a sudden some need to make sure a certain percentage of a certain color are listening to it? And an absence of that, must be the result of racism, rather than people simply listening to sounds they prefer over other sounds that simply don't do it for them... And then when a guy like me says what I've just said, you go, "oh, it's because of his white fragility". Which is another way of being racist and claiming that because of the color of my skin, I must interpret something a certain way... I must be too stupid to understand my faults, because of the color of my skin I can't even see my faults.... The only racists here, are the one's that had to bring racism into a perfectly fine journey of souls engaging in joyful bliss together under the sounds of the music. Shame on all of you involved in trying to pitch this, for going about your day constantly trying to find wrongs, rather than enjoy and celebrate our differences, our cultures. We don't all need to be the same, we don't all need equal representation in things like music preferences. We just need to be, and we need people like yourselves to stop telling us we're broken because we like what we like, and don't like what we don't like. Like someone said above, the entire concept of white fragility is a form of racism. If you put me into a group, and say that I behave a certain way, or don't understand a certain thing, because of the color of my skin (i.e. "white" fragility (not black),,, THAT IS THE PUREST FORM OF RACISM! Phish.net should be appalled they even shared this garbage. The very fact that people dumb enough to try and spew this garbage are now phan's and come to the shows, just reconfirms we'll let anyone chill! Even if they're too young or their brains too underdeveloped to understand their mistakes, their fragility if you will. We'll try to guide you fragiles through this journey until you have been around long enough to realize how stupid your ill-conceived premises are in our realm of love, love of the sound ;)
, comment by Skeesip
Skeesip what specific problems have been witnessed at phish shows? not sure the crowd being overwhelmingly white is enough. it’s lame agreed but it’s just a band that appeals mostly to upper middle class+ suburban people that do drugs
, comment by Zeron
Zeron I mean there's a very simple explanation to the general attitude that you are speaking about here. People get defensive because most of us have only ever given this scene and this music all of our love. Normal people don't look at skin color when interacting with human beings. The irony here is you can't say the same.

But hey, you've achieved your goal of divisiveness. Oops I mean inclusiveness
, comment by climber17
climber17 For those who have commented above: neither our paper, nor the original article published on the Head Count blog that generated our analysis, was about increasing the diversity of the fanbase. The original article (https://www.headcount.org/music-and-activism/phish-scene-white-lets-talk/) is filled with specific examples from phans of color who have experienced shows differently. And the instinct to reflexively jump in and defend the scene and attack those who are raising questions about it is the exact type of reaction we document and discuss in our article, so maybe it's worth engaging a bit more deeply with the content rather than being so dismissive.
, comment by ltbuilder7
ltbuilder7 “Educating oneself, in an effort to do better next time, is always time well spent, whether it’s spurred by a fragile reaction or not. The more we know, the more we can do better.” Thanks for helping to educate.

Just because Phish shows are amazing, it doesn’t mean they’re problem-free. I suspect that many harassment issues have occurred outside/ inside shows. (See for example articles about the 2018 Gorge attacks). It seems totally appropriate to talk about these. IMO we should listen to perspectives from minority Phans if we want Phish to keep going and evolving.
, comment by zothound
zothound Complete BS article. The topic should begin and end with this quote from Trey in the 2016 where he basically says he wants the shows apolitical. Once again, white liberals ruin everything by telling us what non whites should be offended by. The arrogance is astounding but not surprising. Probably why the scene is so weak the past few years. Anyway, here’s the quote from rolling stone May 26 2016.

Trey when asked about the election.

“I’m watching with curiosity, but I have a very strong resistance to musicians taking a side. Because I feel like music is the one thing in my life that, when the band is playing, it feels so spiritual and so open to inviting everyone into the party that anything where it sounds like I’m being the thought police, or Phish as a band, as an entity, where it’s like, “You should think this way,” or “You should vote for this guy.” Or “If you love Ted Cruz, you should feel bad.” I don’t feel that way. I feel like what we do for a living is by its nature the antidote to that kind of thing, that this is a place where you come for spirit and not politics. So that’s why, if you actually look closely, I haven’t publicly supported anyone.”
, comment by Skeesip
Skeesip @climber17 said:
For those who have commented above: neither our paper, nor the original article published on the Head Count blog that generated our analysis, was about increasing the diversity of the fanbase. The original article (https://www.headcount.org/music-and-activism/phish-scene-white-lets-talk/) is filled with specific examples from phans of color who have experienced shows differently. And the instinct to reflexively jump in and defend the scene and attack those who are raising questions about it is the exact type of reaction we document and discuss in our article, so maybe it's worth engaging a bit more deeply with the content rather than being so dismissive.
fair enough I did see you had some examples. doesn’t surprise me I suppose
, comment by Suzys_Neurologist
Suzys_Neurologist This is important to discuss and I’m glad there are folks out there doing it. It’s really hard to read some of the reactions that this post drives but it underscores even more the importance of talking about white privilege and the general lack of understanding that the whole reason phish and it’s phan base (among many many other things that are a celebrated part of our lives) exists is because of white privilege for centuries leading up to our current era. We have to do better examining this concept or we are forever doomed to keep making the same mistakes.

I, for one, am looking forward to meeting you (PHRE) on the road this summer and would like to engage more with your work moving forward.
, comment by stretch522
stretch522 Thank you. Thank you for bringing the awfulness of the outside world to my one respite from it. I feel awful for anyone who has a bad time at a show, regardless of where they come from or look like. I think on the whole, the "scene" supports anyone and everyone who wants to enjoy the awesomeness that is Phish. But just as in the outside world, there are total dicks in our scene as well. I've had plenty of run ins with not cool people over the years. To expect that people are going turn in to some sort of ethics police or that there aren't the same assholes in the Phish community that there are in the world at large is naive and foolish. I resent being lectured to because you feel bad.
, comment by OngBlerg
OngBlerg In a social vacuum without fragility and privilege where everyone is truly equal, we probably end up with a similar fan base demographically.

Sucks Trey didn’t find a more ethnically diverse group of people in Rural Vermont to follow the band around.

Phish is an inclusive space for hippies of all walks of life. Condemning attitudes of social complacency falls on deaf ears because a lot of us tune into Phish to get away from this kind of rhetoric that pervades modern culture and doesn’t really offer solutions, just guilt and name calling.
, comment by greatquux
greatquux It really all comes down to what actions you (in the singular) can perform yourself at a show. Firstly, I will not (and have not) treated anyone differently at a show based on how they look (skin, hair, short, tall, wook, business-like, etc.) Nothing, certainly nothing so stupid as skin color, could matter here, because you're all degenerates to me.
Secondly, if I did see any kind of argument or fight breaking out based on if a person or group was being singled out and abused, or made to feel bad because of their race or ethnic group or other characteristic, or a female fan made to feel uncomfortable by some guy's actions, I really would intervene and make it known that is not OK here, and me and everyone behind me is not going to let anything shitty go down. No one should be forced to take that and we all should stand up and make sure it's not accepted. Now, I have not seen that personally myself, but I certainly believe people if they say it happened. No, what I see are the stupid assholes fighting about drinks or space or talking loudly or their own personal shit they should have left in the parking lot, and fuck them, they can go to the back of the lawn and fuck each other up, just don't ruin my time.
What we can do, and what we should do, is what we as individuals can do, and that makes the group better through our actions. Those are real, important things, much better time spent that reading this whole goddamn blog post, ain't no one got time for that shit.
, comment by climber17
climber17 @zothound said:
Complete BS article. The topic should begin and end with this quote from Trey in the 2016 where he basically says he wants the shows apolitical. Once again, white liberals ruin everything by telling us what non whites should be offended by. The arrogance is astounding but not surprising. Probably why the scene is so weak the past few years. Anyway, here’s the quote from rolling stone May 26 2016.

Trey when asked about the election.

“I’m watching with curiosity, but I have a very strong resistance to musicians taking a side. Because I feel like music is the one thing in my life that, when the band is playing, it feels so spiritual and so open to inviting everyone into the party that anything where it sounds like I’m being the thought police, or Phish as a band, as an entity, where it’s like, “You should think this way,” or “You should vote for this guy.” Or “If you love Ted Cruz, you should feel bad.” I don’t feel that way. I feel like what we do for a living is by its nature the antidote to that kind of thing, that this is a place where you come for spirit and not politics. So that’s why, if you actually look closely, I haven’t publicly supported anyone.”
You seem to be responding to this blog post, but it is unclear whether your critique ("Complete BS article") also includes the paper we authored?

Interesting that you picked Trey to make your point...you obviously don't follow Fishman on social media ;) At the end of the day, each of them, like each of us, is human, and I certainly believe it is essential to our humanity to be willing to look at the facts, and examine our opinions and assumptions in light of new information.

Here is a fact: PHRE has been given space to table inside the venue since 2018, including every stop on last summer's tour.
, comment by lackjack
lackjack as a fellow phan and philosopher, I'd like to cite some additional contemporary source material for any further study:
https://www.phantasytour.com/bands/phish/threads/4881145/is-this-real-phish-net-content#page/1
, comment by 12ozMouse
12ozMouse I think controversial articles are fine, although this topic really and truly is 0.0% of the reason I'm interested in Phish or attend shows. I'll quote myself, "I don't care if you're a purple newt from the Congo with Tongan blood, it's nice to have you here".

I can't get down with the narrative in this article, but in a way, I'm glad it was published and real thoughts can be exchanged. The free market of speech, if you will. I guess the million dollar question I have with these themes, which I think warrants a very real and serious discussion: Let us take the position that the author's of this article are valid in their conclusion....how can one appropriately disagree with the conclusion in this article in a way that is accepted as a valid counter-argument? Because if we go with (crude summary here) "well Phish shows are too white and if you are white and don't think so, it's because of privilege and fragility, which is how the scene exists in the first place".....you can't have a serious discussion when the logic is so circular that there are no valid responses, or that any contradictory response is proof-positive of the validity of your argument. It doesn't check out.
, comment by disco_stu1973
disco_stu1973 I just read the blog the author was pushing:

PHISH SCENE SO WHITE: LET’S TALK

It had some good points, It had some bad points. So let's get some thinking done... The first three paragraphs written in bold caught my eye. They are as follows:

Our entire scene is built upon a foundation of white privilege.
My white privilege was not so awesome. Arrested for a bag of shake and spent a night in the clink before what was to be my first show in 1992 at the Garden State Arts Center. Shake and underage drinking even without having an open container...cuffs and straight to the clink. No resisting, not driving, no cashless bail. Just busted. No Phish for me.

More importantly, and to your point, anyone at Magnaball could have had a hassle free experience, it was not reserved for one group and not another. And I am so damn sorry that the security force had nothing better to do than make sure the attendees were safe because there was not a bad vibe to be found there.

We’re not immune to racial bias.
Nobody in any class, race, or gender is. It is being increasingly shoved down our throats hourly. The subject of this blog is "White Fragility" so thank you for doing your part to keep kicking this can down the road. Perhaps a bit of racial bias has been deeply rooted in our DNA for millenniums and is not the end of the world, so lets just stop being racist, sexist, and homophobic. That would be a pretty good goal for the next decade or so. And maybe we can start with talking about what unites us, and not what divides us.

It might not be so awesome to walk around a Phish festival or show as a person of color.
Why would it not be? Nobody in the scene cares about who/what/why you are. We only care that you are here, happy, and safe. I don't remember or identify people based on what they look like. I just remember how much fun we had and the time we shared.

In summary, thank you for your essay on Cultural Marxism. But please remember Dr. Martin Luther King Jr fought for equality and Nikita Khrushchev fought for equity. Fight wisely and good vibes.
, comment by MojoRising
MojoRising If I was the author I would approach this important issue differently. I would point out in whatever future articles are written that there is an example of a mostly white, male crowd that does treat the world right.

The only example of a violent act at a Phish show was at The Gorge and it was perpetuated by a local who was not a fan. A hired Security Guard by the venue. The band quietly took care of the fan with a private show/soundcheck. Again, the perp was not a fan or affiliated with the band.

I have been to shows with people of different races, sex orientations and with ADA. Hands down the ADA folks are treated the worse.

The community is a very accepting base because many of us have a screw loose in some form or another and try to be aware of each other.

If you look for beauty in the world you will find it.
, comment by first_tube_screamer
first_tube_screamer The author has removed all text from this comment.
, comment by Lee_Fordham
Lee_Fordham Acknowledging that you've benefited from white privilege is not the same thing as you being racist.

We should strive to be more race conscious and not "color blind." Of course that means still judging people by the content of their character, but also taking into account someone's race as it may pertain to how they are perceived in a certain setting. The most common example I think I've read on this topic at shows is that people of color are often asked by other phans where the bathrooms are - as if it's just assumed the POC is working at the venue and not a phan. The person asking the question could be the sweetest person in the world without any racist intensions at all, but you can see how the incorrect assumptions in that case would be hurtful to the POC, especially if it happened over and over again.
, comment by shinphish
shinphish Acknowledging a fabricated reality through the lens of 'your place in it' - perpetuates it. Why not spend time talking about Protestant Phragility instead? Examining the fracturing of a religious belief system is a less tenuous reach than ignorance fomented skin pigment prejudice and bias creating cover for a system of government which is rigged toward specific beneficiaries. Adding energy to this ideology sphere doesn't help the healing of a nation and its people for prior wrongs of long dead individuals. If its cast in a light of the false reality we have to end to move beyond it as a species, its not helping as much as its perpetuating the sham.

Remorse based engagement helps individuals reconcile present behavior but the generalization of empty marketing-like terminology to try and help individual guilt through and by trying to 'share the load'.

I'm also a beneficiary of the Mongol dynasty, and they snuffed out civilizations and supplanted their own with great success, altered the flow of human history in many ways - yet I don't bare the burden of the guilt of what came before me, or have some need to reconcile with all that was extinguished to achieve the state of things in the present edge of the flow of time.

skin pigment, geo restricted breeding pools of humans, leading to a predominance of feature traits, does not make us less human or different human. what terminology, what biology, what associations, what alignments of faith, these are all ways to separate us from one another. The individual self must reconcile so much when deciding how connected to all that is, and was, and will be done by our species.

Discussion is good, but you set the stage for failure by all who would engage, by falling into the trap of racial ideology's false premise.

"Until the color of a man's skin, is of no more significance than the color of his eyes, I got to say... War"

That includes prideful recognition of your own skin, not just persecution of another kind of skin with a different pigment than of your own. The same is true of intimacy, organs you have or aspire to have, words to overly classify your distinctiveness can lead down the same path as any other failed supremacy ideology.

Embracing new dismissive pejoratives doesn't make you less fascist or less biased, or less prejudiced than your predecessor generations and their hate speech. Picking up words with less historical baggage doesn't mean the same contents of hate and bias aren't within the load you bring upon yourself to carry.
, comment by FunkDog
FunkDog I’m your article in Headcount, you say -“In sum, a Phish show is clearly no Trump rally, but I think it’s fair to say at minimum that our beloved scene hasn’t been welcoming for all people at all times.”

Do you think a Phish show will ever be as racially diverse as a typical Trump rally?
, comment by PhillyAndrew
PhillyAndrew The comments on this article double down on the fact that this fanbase is insufferable and insanely ignorant.
, comment by ltbuilder7
ltbuilder7 I can see why entering Phish lot, which I love, might carry real worries for anyone non-white. I’m white and have spent a night in jail for weed but understand that black people are still arrested for weed 3-4x as often as whites. The war on drugs has been well-documented to systematically imprison people of color, especially blacks. I love the “light touch” of policing that Phish works on, but think unfair bias exists and makes it harder to feel free if you’re not white.
, comment by GreenSunshine
GreenSunshine Lots of white fragility up there.
, comment by zothound
zothound @climber17 said:
@zothound said:
Complete BS article. The topic should begin and end with this quote from Trey in the 2016 where he basically says he wants the shows apolitical. Once again, white liberals ruin everything by telling us what non whites should be offended by. The arrogance is astounding but not surprising. Probably why the scene is so weak the past few years. Anyway, here’s the quote from rolling stone May 26 2016.

Trey when asked about the election.

“I’m watching with curiosity, but I have a very strong resistance to musicians taking a side. Because I feel like music is the one thing in my life that, when the band is playing, it feels so spiritual and so open to inviting everyone into the party that anything where it sounds like I’m being the thought police, or Phish as a band, as an entity, where it’s like, “You should think this way,” or “You should vote for this guy.” Or “If you love Ted Cruz, you should feel bad.” I don’t feel that way. I feel like what we do for a living is by its nature the antidote to that kind of thing, that this is a place where you come for spirit and not politics. So that’s why, if you actually look closely, I haven’t publicly supported anyone.”
You seem to be responding to this blog post, but it is unclear whether your critique ("Complete BS article") also includes the paper we authored?

Interesting that you picked Trey to make your point...you obviously don't follow Fishman on social media ;) At the end of the day, each of them, like each of us, is human, and I certainly believe it is essential to our humanity to be willing to look at the facts, and examine our opinions and assumptions in light of new information.

Here is a fact: PHRE has been given space to table inside the venue since 2018, including every stop on last summer's tour.
Name yourself! ????. I clearly did not mean the rolling stone article. I love fishman to death
, comment by DenverDoug
DenverDoug I’m not sure of the intent of this comment but I appreciate your sharing. First, if the outside world is awful to you then you are just as responsible for that as anything that happens at phish because phish is nothing more than a part of this world. The phish scene is not separate from anything. There was a racist terrorist attack at the Gorge. We know this already. I’m not sure why everyone seems defensive about this. We can all learn from another’s perspective and if fans of color have been demeaned or marginalized in our community then I want to know about it. I want to take responsibility for it. And I want to help us all to do better going forward. That’s part of my contribution to our scene. We can love something or someone dearly and still acknowledge the imperfections. It doesn’t subtract from the glory, it makes the glory of the music and the scene even more real. To paraphrase Bob Dylan, “there’s nothing political about talking about oppression of people”
, comment by DenverDoug
DenverDoug This reminds me of when Tucker Carlson or Janine Pirro or one of Faux News’ talking heads said, “you know who talks about race?Racists!” Our scene, like our country, still has a lot of baggage to unpack. Talking about oppression of people is not, itself, oppression.
, comment by DenverDoug
DenverDoug I’m not sure what this is supposed to mean. Plans of color talking about what happens to them on lot or at show is not inherently political. Talking about people’s lived experiences is not inherently political. Why is this distinction so difficult for some to grasp. This is life. Phish is life. Oppression, sadly is also life. Acknowledging that can help us all do better. Ignoring it is what will allow it to persist.
, comment by askesis
askesis I'd like to remind everyone that this interview was about an article that was published in the Public Philosophy Journal. Questions were submitted by fans/scholars who had read the article. If you would like proper context, I would strongly recommend reading the excellent, original article that was peer-reviewed.

https://pubhub.lib.msu.edu/read/white-phragility-race-talk-and-backlash-in-the-phish-scene-85f2f5ec-718d-4d3b-b718-6eb2e7854258/section/7d7bcf87-4a24-46af-b6f9-714669df4bc6 Read it here.

I'm afraid that many of the comments are providing evidence for the authors' claims. We can do better.
, comment by dongusbologna
dongusbologna Lol.
Tell me you've been indoctrinated by a woke liberal college without telling me.

Time and time again, the most racist people I see are the ones who think they're racial advocates. You people see race in everything and try to make it an issue where it doesn't need to be. Probably has NOTHING to do with your entire livelihood and personality being wrapped up in keeping racism alive and well... (Colin Kaepernick much?)

Gotta give it to you though, you all are masters of co-opting language. You've successfully equated pointing out blatant racism and a desire to not listen to people so obsessed with race go off on divisive rants as "white fragility," just like you've turned capitalism into "the patriarchy" and a "system founded on white supremacy."

Classic argument tactic too, establishing from the get-go that anyone who counters your thesis is automatically labeled an insulting term, and any counter to being insulted allows you to go "see?" You've created a narrative where white people are bad simply for existing and if we point that out or say that it bothers us, we're still in the wrong for doing so - a narrative where even this statement can instantly be disregarded (and with a smug rolling of the eyes) because of my "white cis male privilege."

I remember when being called a racist was an insult. Now, if you simply live in the US (sorry, a nation founded on white supremacy) and have a job (sorry, "use your privilege and ableist ways to support a system built on inequity"), you're a racist simply for "participating" in that white supremacist system.

You people are hilarious. I love that both white people felt the need to identify themselves as "cisgender" when the others didn't mention gender at all. Do you all get some sort of virtue signal points?
, comment by DeepBlueSky
DeepBlueSky This kind of crap is exactly what most of us go to see Phish to escape.

This kind of crap is exactly why so many Phish fans don't like this website.

I really feel sorry for the people who wrote this crappy article and those who believe it. You're clearly unaware and/or ignorant of a great deal of history, have bought in to some really big lies, and have a profoundly negative outlook on the world as a result. So much so you're imagining negativity where it doesn't exist.

I can appreciate to a degree that you're trying to do good in the world as you see it, but please realize that walking into a room generally full of happy people and calling them racist and/or fragile for disagreeing with you is far from the best way to go about it. It's more than a little disrespectful. Also, please realize and respect that Phish shows are the happy place of escape for most who go there. Escape from the various type of BS we all deal with elsewhere in life, especially including modern political BS.

Trey's quote zothound posted above applies in spades, and that philosophy is a part of the reason that many of us love this band. Someone mentioned Fishman's social media as validation for this article, and perhaps any other political crap ever posted here. It's not. Fishman is either smart enough to keep his politics largely away from the scene or Trey and the rest of the band keep him in check. My money is on the former so the latter isn't even necessary. (I have oodles of respect for Fishman as a person, and salute his political efforts away from the scene even when I disagree with them, but if he ever made a point to bring his politics into the Phish world anymore than the band already has (which is to say: not much at all), the band would start losing longtime fans.)

While you may not mean to be, you're close to the worst I've run into on the 'scene'. The worst being a couple of coked up belligerent dudes I've bumped into at a couple of shows. Fortunately though they aren't here pushing their agenda of being coked up and belligerent, and have so far refrained from insulting everyone who doesn't agree with their outlook on the world. You, have not refrained. So in at least that way, you are the worst.

Your preaching philosophy belongs here as much as anyone else preaching whatever. Please do not mistake my criticism of you as just a mere disagreement with your racist philosophy. I'd have as much disdain for anyone coming here to tell us all that we need to support X or not support X that has nothing to do with the music or seeing it, and then telling us if we don't there's something wrong with us. Even if I agreed with what they were asking us to do.

I'm sure a great many other people feel the same, whatever their color, sex, shape, size, or philosophies happens to be.

We are here for the music, and the happy people. Not those who want to live in misery. If you're miserable, find a happy person and let them inspire you.

This is your song too, come out of the gloom please. If you insist on not doing it, please stop trying to bring the rest of us into it, all the while acting like your gloom is the superior place.

While I can stomach a little of it, seeing this more than once now garners a response (the first I saw of this racist crap was in the STTF issue I read on the train to NYC for NYE).

There were a number of great things already said in response to this article, but this I especially think deserves repeating: "...remember Dr. Martin Luther King Jr fought for equality and Nikita Khrushchev fought for equity. Fight wisely and good vibes."

If that quote doesn't make sense to you, or your don't understand it's relevance, or if you can't see how the authors of this article are supporting racism, please spend a lot more time than you already so far have in life reflecting. Please also spend a bit more time as well learning yourself what cultural Marxism is.

Now, go faceplant yourself into rock. You need it.
, comment by Daddo
Daddo I cannot believe this discussion of White Phragility during Women’s History month.
The misogyny is on FULL DISPLAY.
, comment by thceez
thceez This whole article is dumb. Phish is mostly found through college. Most people who attend colleges happen to be white. That's just the reality of the situation. I'm 100% hispanic and never once experienced any form of racism at all. Quite the opposite actually. The people couldn't be any friendlier. Nicest people on Earth. Warmest and most welcoming/loving environment you can ever find. I'm also pretty far left on the political spectrum but articles like these are just asinine.
, comment by Junglesafari
Junglesafari Good lord…what happened to us? Is this how it is now?
, comment by FunkDog
FunkDog Disappointed that my question is not answered. I also would like to know what is going to be done about the system?

Do the strategies and skills for responding to racism and white fragility in live music environments differ from those in other scenarios? In other words, do concerts present unique challenges? If so, how? And how do we overcome them?

DB: These dynamics are systemic, show up everywhere, and any distinctions of how they show up in different scenarios, are at some level, academic. The personal work and skills for responding to racism showing up are also fundamentally the same.


So many tickets, especially the best seats for significant shows of a tour, are purchased through a lottery system. The people that purchase tickets in this manner are overwhelmingly white. This can be independently verified by looking at who is in the best seats of these shows. What can be done to bring racial equity to the lottery purchase system for Phish concerts? Do any of the three white people, or one asian person have any insight towards an answer for this?
, comment by shredwinterwaves
shredwinterwaves I think a big part of the reason for the backlash is that the article seems to dismiss potentially legitimate and well-intentioned critiques of the authors' views as simply the product of white fragility without actually engaging those critiques. While there are plenty of ignorant trolls who don't deserve engagement, the general dismissiveness of any criticism is overbroad. It's actually a lot like the concept of white fragility itself.
, comment by panfence
panfence @Zeron said:
I mean there's a very simple explanation to the general attitude that you are speaking about here. People get defensive because most of us have only ever given this scene and this music all of our love. Normal people don't look at skin color when interacting with human beings. The irony here is you can't say the same.

But hey, you've achieved your goal of divisiveness. Oops I mean inclusiveness
It's why the entire premise of white fragility is a kafka trap. Either you admit you are racist and fragile , or deny you're racist and fragile proving youre racist and fragile.
, comment by love_and_light
love_and_light Has anyone considered that black people generally don't like noodly guitar music. Chapelle show did a skit about this with John Mayer.
, comment by ckess22
ckess22 Read Icculus
, comment by lazyblazers
lazyblazers This comment section bums me out.

I was a presenter at the 2019 Phish Studies conference myself and as a white, cisgender jam band fan, I found the presentation made there on this subject to be really eye-opening. This post led me to the full PPJ article, which I found to be really interesting also. I think the work this group is doing is really important, especially in the Phish/jamband space, but unfortunately it's pretty thankless work (as many of the comments here prove). So, I wanted to say "thanks," from at least one fan.

As the post implies, there's a huge difference between being counter-cultural and open-minded. Many Phish fans are proud of being the former, but whenever an issue like this one comes up I realize fewer than I'd like to think are interested in being the latter. Sure, not everyone is going to agree with every claim made in this post, or the original blog post, or the full article, but there's a difference between reading the ideas the group is putting out there, considering them, and disagreeing in a way that adds meaningfully to the conversation versus trotting out the same tired "anti-woke" arguments that already exist everywhere else on the internet (arguments, incidentally, that the post and article largely acknowledge and rebut in convincing ways).
, comment by FunkDog
FunkDog @lazyblazers said:
This comment section bums me out.
Hopefully, with time and understanding, you will be able to respect and appreciate points of views outside of your own.
The article received disapproval. Bringing it in here, it also receives disapproval. There is a reason, a good reason, why academic papers are peer reviewed.
, comment by User_69501_
User_69501_ @climber17 said:
For those who have commented above: neither our paper, nor the original article published on the Head Count blog that generated our analysis, was about increasing the diversity of the fanbase. The original article (https://www.headcount.org/music-and-activism/phish-scene-white-lets-talk/) is filled with specific examples from phans of color who have experienced shows differently. And the instinct to reflexively jump in and defend the scene and attack those who are raising questions about it is the exact type of reaction we document and discuss in our article, so maybe it's worth engaging a bit more deeply with the content rather than being so dismissive.
Okay so the white fragility paper has a part that is basically a throw away/dismissal (note that they wrote "regardless" as if it doesn't really matter why) and it kind of cuts to the heart of the issue. I think you (the authors) probably could have done better.

"There are several possible explanations for the whiteness of the fan base,[16] but regardless of the reason, Phish shows and the surrounding scenes in parking lots or midtown bars are primarily white spaces"

Nothing deeper about the "several explanations" instead they employ a footnote.

Here is one possible explanation: the music doesn't appeal to as wide a demographic.

Four white guys from a predominately white state making noodley jamband music just doesn't draw in a racially diverse audience.

So the original article omitted the biggest/central question. Why is the fanbase 92% white?

Kind of a head scratcher for me. Maybe one of the scholars can explain why that question was not addressed. Or am I just being phragile? (No sarcasm intended)
, comment by Midcoaster
Midcoaster @Lee_Fordham said:
Acknowledging that you've benefited from white privilege is not the same thing as you being racist.

We should strive to be more race conscious and not "color blind." Of course that means still judging people by the content of their character, but also taking into account someone's race as it may pertain to how they are perceived in a certain setting. The most common example I think I've read on this topic at shows is that people of color are often asked by other phans where the bathrooms are - as if it's just assumed the POC is working at the venue and not a phan. The person asking the question could be the sweetest person in the world without any racist intensions at all, but you can see how the incorrect assumptions in that case would be hurtful to the POC, especially if it happened over and over again.
This is a rational response in a sea of irrational responses. I read DiAngelo’s book a few years ago and didn’t understand what all the hype against her was about. We have teachers in staff who were saying that it shouldn’t be in the library. That type of reaction simply doubles down on DiAngelo’s thesis about knee-jerk defensiveness as a simple practice of avoidance, not wanting to confront basic truths about our lives.

Many of us in this scene have experience with white privilege. In particular, I’m thinking about scrubbing off the wook exterior, including a haircut, and continuing to travel with copious amounts of drugs hassle-free.
, comment by User_69501_
User_69501_ @FunkDog said:

Hopefully, with time and understanding, you will be able to respect and appreciate points of views outside of your own.
The article received disapproval. Bringing it in here, it also receives disapproval. There is a reason, a good reason, why academic papers are peer reviewed.
And there it is.
People came in and downvoted this very rational, well stated comment. I guess the wokesters can dish out the abuse but can't take a very astute observation for what it is, the truth.
I think it shows exactly which group is the fragile one.
Don't often agree with you funkdog but in this case nail meet head.
, comment by akjed
akjed It's almost like most of those commenting on this article didn't listen to what the article was trying to say. I appreciate this post. It made me feel uncomfortable, which I think is the point.
, comment by into_the_tide
into_the_tide @FunkDog said:
Disappointed that my question is not answered. I also would like to know what is going to be done about the system?

Do the strategies and skills for responding to racism and white fragility in live music environments differ from those in other scenarios? In other words, do concerts present unique challenges? If so, how? And how do we overcome them?

DB: These dynamics are systemic, show up everywhere, and any distinctions of how they show up in different scenarios, are at some level, academic. The personal work and skills for responding to racism showing up are also fundamentally the same.


So many tickets, especially the best seats for significant shows of a tour, are purchased through a lottery system. The people that purchase tickets in this manner are overwhelmingly white. This can be independently verified by looking at who is in the best seats of these shows. What can be done to bring racial equity to the lottery purchase system for Phish concerts? Do any of the three white people, or one asian person have any insight towards an answer for this?
Lol the best seats are obtained through the lottery? Is that a joke? You’ve drawn a conclusion from a faulty premise and cratered your own argument in the process. As anyone who has been paying attention can tell you, the vast majority of the “best seats” are reserved for “platinum” sale or some other variation of the aftermarket (above face). Only those with means have the ability to purchase these seats in the aftermarket. As you said, if all you see is white faces in those seats then congratulations, you just unintentionally made a point about privilege.
, comment by Melodyhappening
Melodyhappening Pretty genius if you ask me. Accuse people of something based on an immutable quality about them (skin color). Then use their normal human reaction to this accusation as proof of the accusation. And also classify their reaction based on their skin color (“white” fragility). Any pushback you receive is “proof” of your thesis. Kafka trap? Nawww.
, comment by samgustin
samgustin The comments on this article vividly reinforce why this discussion is so necessary. The people who are so upset about any discussion of race in our community are, unwittingly or not, confirming the main point of the article.

Look, we go to Phish shows to have fun, not to get lectured about politics. (Gamehendge notwithstanding). We come to these shows, or we go on tour, because we want to have a few hours or days away from our day-to-day lives in America. It's been a tough couple of years for everyone, and I understand why people feel so protective of this space.

But we should be clear-eyed about what's going on outside -- and inside -- our safe bubble at MSG and other venues. Why? Because we don't live in a made-up world called Gamehendge. We live in the United States of America. In this country, and this city, it's still OK to discuss difficult issues, so that we may come to a better understanding of each other, and this world.

I think freedom of speech is important, even, and perhaps especially, on a jam-band website. I thank the phish.net editors for giving us a place to discuss these topics.
, comment by SoStupendous
SoStupendous An article written predominately by white people, for a predominately white audience -that's Phish for ya!

Music brings unity, analysis brings division. The choice is ours to make! RTFB etc etc
, comment by SoStupendous
SoStupendous @GreenSunshine said:
Lots of white fragility up there.
It's a clever term because "fragility" is meant to be slightly insulting, and then when a person feels insulted and reacts, it's proof of fragility. The perfect crime!
, comment by FunkDog
FunkDog @into_the_tide said:
@FunkDog said:
Disappointed that my question is not answered. I also would like to know what is going to be done about the system?

Do the strategies and skills for responding to racism and white fragility in live music environments differ from those in other scenarios? In other words, do concerts present unique challenges? If so, how? And how do we overcome them?

DB: These dynamics are systemic, show up everywhere, and any distinctions of how they show up in different scenarios, are at some level, academic. The personal work and skills for responding to racism showing up are also fundamentally the same.


So many tickets, especially the best seats for significant shows of a tour, are purchased through a lottery system. The people that purchase tickets in this manner are overwhelmingly white. This can be independently verified by looking at who is in the best seats of these shows. What can be done to bring racial equity to the lottery purchase system for Phish concerts? Do any of the three white people, or one asian person have any insight towards an answer for this?
Lol the best seats are obtained through the lottery? Is that a joke? You’ve drawn a conclusion from a faulty premise and cratered your own argument in the process. As anyone who has been paying attention can tell you, the vast majority of the “best seats” are reserved for “platinum” sale or some other variation of the aftermarket (above face). Only those with means have the ability to purchase these seats in the aftermarket. As you said, if all you see is white faces in those seats then congratulations, you just unintentionally made a point about privilege.
Ok, valid point, the platinum seats and aftermarket go for big bucks. Can any interaction with a corporation called “TicketMaster” be anything other than evil?
, comment by RobesPierre
RobesPierre This coming election should be a lock. Democrats should be dominating and controlling all the branches of government. The reason we’re not is because of stuff like this. Lecturing phish fans about how racist they actually are? Asking them to feel some sort of shame because the fans of the band they like happen to be mostly white? I’m aggressively liberal and progressive. But this type of messaging is just awful. It’s like these people work for the Trump campaign. Are there some racist fans, sure. Racists come in all shapes and sizes, and they should all have their skulls cracked. But as a demographic phish fans are particularly anti racist. So what’s the point of this article really? For some woke trustfunders to feel good about themselves?

Here’s a question…. If I were to call you fragile would you take it as an insult? And would you be slightly defensive about being called fragile? Of course you would. Which is exactly why “white fragility” is a bullshit term. You insult the very people you’re supposedly trying to bring to your side and then when they act insulted you point to it as proof of their fragility.

The only way this country will be saved is if liberals and progressives come together and accept each other and stop bickering about pronouns and things like this essay. The ideas often make sense and most people agree. But the constant accusing tone and constantly asking average white people, who have marched with blm and done their part to help stop racism, to prostrate themselves is a recipe for failure. If we’re all equal, we all need to act, and treat each other, as equals. This includes not subtlety implying that all phish fans are racist and non inclusive to people of color and then crying “white fragility” when some take offense to that accusation.
, comment by Thesba
Thesba Kudos to the authors here and to folks organizing against white supremacy.

The people on here complaining don't belong at shows. Period. Pick a side. And remember Phish played benefits for the ANC and wrote songs like Dear Mrs. Reagan.

This is not an abstract debate. People who complain about anti racism are enemies of the Phish community.
, comment by JasonDG
JasonDG Most of the comments are downright disheartening. I support PHRE's efforts 100%.
, comment by FoxmansBrother
FoxmansBrother I think part of this is acknowledging that we all have work to do. Many folks perceive this as an attack on individuals, but that's not the case at all. It's a desire to make a great community even better. I'm grateful to be part of a community that strives to create a more inclusive space for everyone. Nobody is perfect but we've got to try our best. I'd love our scene to be more diverse and share in the groove with more and more of our friends. Glad we're having the conversation, it's uncomfortable but with discomfort comes growth. Introspection and examination could do us all some good.
, comment by Choda
Choda White phragility vs Tahoe Tweezer
, comment by climber17
climber17 ***AUTHORS’ RESPONSE TO COMMENTS***

We appreciate that this blog post, like the 2017 essay that sparked the creation of PHRE, has generated some passionate discussion.

For those who found this AMA, the White Phragility article, or the Phish Scene So White: Let’s Talk essay helpful or eye-opening, we invite you to visit our website at www.PhansForRacialEquity.org to learn how to get more involved with our work to build an inclusive, anti-racist jam band scene that is mobilized as a force for equity in our broader world.

In that spirit, we’d like to address some of the most common objections here in the comments in hopes that we can continue a productive dialogue.

“This is too political, and I come to Phish to avoid politics.”

Many of us, including the authors, see Phish and the surrounding scene as an escape from the pressures and pathologies of the outside world. We come to escape, so the last thing we want is someone confronting us with outside unpleasantness.

The challenge is that for everyone to be able to have that same, blissful, ignore-the-outside-world experience, there is work we must all do to ensure that those external problems don’t show up for some members of our community as obstacles to the great time we all want to share.

It is easy to assume everyone’s experience is similar to our own. But, while we are certainly having a collective experience at Phish, each person is also experiencing their own unique version–and this is shaped by lots of factors, including how we move through the world as a cluster of various identities.

Our fellow phans who are Black don’t leave behind what it means to be Black in America when they come through the turnstiles. When someone experiences racism on lot, or even face ignorance that doesn’t come from a place of hate (“where’s the bathroom” or “is this your first show”, along with other examples cited in the original 2017 essay), it means that same blissed-out, outside-of-politics experience we crave is not available to them. Since its founding, we’ve had phans of color come to PHRE with other experiences, including being harassed by venue staff, and we’re working on a feature on our website where phans can tell their stories about race in the scene–good and bad.

So, this raises a question: is one person’s “right” or wish to not face some unpleasant realities or “politics,” or have to look critically at the scene, more important than another phan’s“right” to enjoy a show in a safe, comfortable, and inclusive environment?

“You’ve set it up so if I disagree with you I’m “fragile,” so it’s heads you win, tails I lose.”

By talking about white fragility it can seem like we’re accusing anyone who disagrees with us of being fragile. But, if you read our essay, we’re actually saying something different.

When we say in our paper that many of the online comments posted on the original 2017 essay, and the AMA comments here are examples of fragility it is precisely because they are reflexively defensive, often without engaging with the actual material with an open mind. In some cases, the comments suggest that the very titles of those essays were perceived as accusations. One can disagree with PHRE on the factual premises of our work (e.g. “no, cops don’t treat us better because we’re white”) and certainly on our strategy (e.g. posting an AMA with the authors of the paper on Phish.net) without exhibiting fragility.

A good example of this is the poster who suggested the ideas in these essays might be right, but the messaging and overall effort isn’t helpful to achieving long-term goals around progressive politics and racial equity. That is certainly a reasonable thing to question and can lead to a productive dialogue. One could also question the factual premises behind our claims and ask for more evidence.

But, instead, there are numerous comments accusing the authors, and by implication anyone who shares our perspective, of being “new age wokesters” who will “ruin the scene” or similar because we’re raising uncomfortable questions And, it appears that several of our harshest critics are reacting without having read either the original 2017 essay or the academic journal article that forms the basis for this AMA series. This is apparent because posters have imputed to us goals we have explicitly disavowed (for example, it is not PHRE’s goal to diversify the scene; that could simply be a happy secondary result of our work), or made points we have addressed without engaging with our arguments.

“By making everything about race, you are the ones being divisive, even racist.”

Some folks suggest that focusing on (or even noticing) race is divisive, sort of like picking at a scab that would heal if we just left it alone. This is often associated with the notion that “I don’t see color” and that to notice race is actually a form of racism.

There are a few challenges with this line of thinking. First, race has been made salient / significant by societal forces that are beyond our individual control. While not noticing race or seeing color might seem like a noble aspiration, it’s simply not how the human brain functions. We’ve evolved over thousands of years to categorize people in groups and tribes, and plenty of studies have confirmed that we all harbor biases and assumptions about various groups, many of which we are not conscious of holding. In other words, one does not need to be an avowed racist for race to shape how we perceive people or situations. This is true for *all* of us, no matter our race or ethnicity.

So when a White person tells a Black person in America that they “don’t see color,” what we’re really saying is some combination of “I’m deluding myself into thinking that I don’t notice that you’re Black”, thus avoiding the opportunity to think proactively about whether we’re carrying any unexamined assumptions; and b) more importantly, “I’m refusing to acknowledge that you may be having a different experience than I am right now” because of the way race shapes American society in ways beyond any individual’s control.

Second, this line of thinking contains an underlying assumption that ‘usually things are not about race, and only occasionally does race rear its (ugly) head.’

But, this is typically the lived experience only for White people. This is because White folks tend to move through contexts (work, social, etc.) that are specifically constructed for them, and that center them, as the norm.

ARL: The first time this really hit me (Adam) was through a conversation I had with a Black friend in law school. At that point I thought most discrimination in our society was based on economics–so if poor Black people experienced prejudice and a harder path it was mostly because they were poor. Surely, wealthy, well-educated people of color are doing fine. Then my friend told me that he (an Ivy League graduate and Ivy League law student) was reliably followed in stores; and described how being Black in America is a central aspect of his lived experience every single day.

As White people, we (as three of the four authors experience) don’t have to think about race, how we show up, how we speak, etc. in most circumstances. Black people and other people of color, on the other hand, experience race constantly in American society.

RM: As a brown-skinned woman of Indian origin, I look different from about 95% of the people at Phish shows. At shows, I have experienced being invisible to people (such as not getting introduced in a group setting and being skipped over, when everyone else, who all happen to be White, does get introduced), to being objectified as “exotic” because I look different (Adam was a witness to one such experience!). Sometimes people at shows can’t pronounce my name or remember it (and not because of altered states!) because it is “different.” Although I have not experienced the worst of the micro- and maco-aggressions and “othering”, possibly because I am a lighter-skinned brown person? Many Phish fans understand what it's like to be judged based on appearance, but for most of the community that's based on the choice to dress a certain way or take on a certain image. What many White phans may not realize is that no matter how hard I rock my Kasvot Vaxt t-shirt and telegraph that I'm part of the scene, I still feel judged and placed in a category of outsider for something that is beyond my control. I could go on, but I’ll stop here. It’s a complicated subject that’s a lot easier to talk about in person than to write about in a short and limited forum like this one - as grateful as I am to have this forum!

***

If you find it exhausting to talk about race all the time, consider how exhausting it is to live with race forming a central part of one’s experience walking through America every day, just trying to live, work, and maybe see a concert here and there.

“White fragility is itself a racist term, since it’s an accusation made based on race.”

The term white fragility does acknowledge race and power structures in the U.S., but it does not paint all White people with a broad brush by suggesting all White people are fragile. Rather, it describes a particular set of defensive reactions (that we argue are triggered by false beliefs) that White people may exhibit when confronted with difficult or uncomfortable conversations about race.

Although not everyone agrees, many scholars define racism as the combination of prejudice and power, either by individuals or through systems. In this view, the term is not racist because it is a critique of a behavior exhibited by people at the top of the power hierarchy, that itself plays an essential role in maintaining that hierarchy.

What makes the concept both interesting and especially applicable to the Phish scene is that avowed racists may not experience much fragility about race. As both DiAngelo and our article explain, it is precisely people who see themselves as more progressive on race that tend to become most defensive when discussing it.
, comment by phunkboy
phunkboy Really appreciate this post. As a queer, mixed-race phan (asian, chicano, and white) who's been to hundreds of shows since 1995, I've often felt like an outsider in Phish's sea of mostly white, straight dudes. There is understandably an immense amount of (often toxic) masculinity in our predominantly white leisure space, and microaggressions are a common experience. I know from many BIPOC, women, disabled, and/or LGBT phans that our shared experiences in the scene are not the anomalies that some commenters here mistakenly claim they are.

In a space that centers white, male, able-bodied, and hetero/cis folks, even well intentioned fans "step in it" quite a bit. This is not unique to the jamband scene, nor is it anything to be ashamed of. It's just unfortunately how most of us who are not not straight, white, cis men experience the world on a daily basis. Those who are part of dominant cultures are, in my experience, generally unaware of how they benefit from/within them, and are often surprised or embarrassed to learn when they've done or said something that was "othering" or exclusionary. Unfortunately, bringing this to someone's attention often results in defensive reactions, especially since most of us consider ourselves and our scene to be so enlightened.

Is the Phish scene a bastion of joy and positivity? Absolutely. Is the freedom and ease of access to that "love and light" we all cherish the same for everyone? Absolutely not. Some of us more than others have a much easier path tapping into and remaining in those experiences of bliss, and others have to navigate a minefield of interactions and obstacles that can quickly pull us out of that happy place. Learning about and being mindful of the differences in how folks are treated in and experience our scene is not a burden. It's just part of being good pham.

I'm super grateful for the many fans and fan groups that actively work to build community and provide allyship to a wider diversity of folks. Groups like BrianRobert, Mike Side Dyke Side, PHRE, GrooveSafe, The Phellowship, Access Me, and Queer Deadheads are all great examples of how we can work together to make the scene a more welcoming space for everyone...
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